From Where I Sit: Season 2, Episode 2 with Sarah LaFleur, M.M.LaFleur Founder and CEO Transcript

Tom McGee:

Welcome to From Where I Sit, the podcast where we explore the forces shaping America’s built economy.  I’m your host, Tom McGee, President & CEO of ICSC. In discussion with prominent leaders and innovators, we cut through the noise to explore the trends and innovations influencing the future of our communities.

Welcome to the second episode of season two of From Where I Sit. I have a very exciting guest joining us today, Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's workwear brand, M.M.LaFleur. A Harvard graduate, before founding M.M.LaFleur, Sarah worked in consulting at Bain & Company in New York, and TechnoServe in South Africa. Under Sarah's leadership, M.M.LaFleur's business has grown significantly, both online and in-store, with the brand currently having eight physical stores across the country. Sarah is also a board member at the Airbel Impact Lab, member of the board of advisors of the Second District Advisory Council at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and a board member for the Alliance for Downtown New York. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Sarah LaFleur:

Thank you so much.

Tom:

You have a very impressive background and our plan today is to cover a lot of different things over our short time together. Obviously all things M.M.LaFleur, but also talking a little bit about your leadership journey. You've had a fantastic journey throughout life in a number of ways. And this also gets your perspective about technology and entrepreneurship in general. So let's talk about M.M.LaFleur. First, M.M.LaFleur’s mission and why you picked that mission.

Sarah:

At M.M., we say the world is a better place when women succeed. That's always been our North Star. And I think my chosen path for how we serve that greater mission is fashion. And I think a lot of people will say, what on earth does fashion have to do with women's success? And I guess that's where I've completely fallen in love with, I think I would call it, the power of costume, the ability for clothing to transform not only the way others see you, but the way you feel about yourself that day. I am addicted to seeing our customers try on something new or something they never thought would work for them or they never thought was “for them.” And then you see them come out of the dressing room and look at themselves in the mirror and they say, oh my gosh, I didn't know I could look like this or I look so professional or the other day my favorite line was, “I look so rich,” which I thought was a hilarious just kind of comment. But it's really, it's transformational, the power of clothing. And I think what we try to do at LaFleur is really deliver on that feeling for our customers and make sure they feel like they're putting their best foot forward, especially in a lot of these more professional settings that they encounter.

Tom:

And to that point, your product offering is geared towards women in a professional setting. That's your customer base.

Sarah:

Yes, we've definitely evolved to offer things beyond “workwear.” I think initially when we started the business, we were very focused on tailored dresses and eventually suiting, but COVID happened and that was a big moment of evolution for the business. And so I would say we have evolved to become even more of a lifestyle business. So now we actually have a number of customers who do not work in a professional setting. They're stay-at-home moms, but they need something for moments where they want to look more polished, whether that's for a nonprofit that they might sit on or volunteer for or just even like an occasion where they're going out to meet other parents. So it's definitely been an evolution of the brand.

Tom:

I think I've heard you say the phrase “power casual” before. that a fair phrase for your products?

Sarah:

A hundred percent. Yeah, I think a lot of people may be wondering, what is power casual? And I think when we think about dress codes, we have business formal kind of all the way at the very top, and then it's business casual, and then you got casual. And I think of power casual as this new type of dress code that I think a lot of professionals have embraced in this post COVID era. It's one step below business casual, but it's one step above just plain casual. I think, yes, even though we fell in love with our sweatpants and the elastic waistbands, like very few of us are actually showing up to our professional settings wearing sweatpants, right? And we hope not, who knows? Sometimes we do witness the fashion faux pas, but generally people are stepping it up. And I think that's only become increasingly more the case as like return to office has gone mainstream in a lot of industries. But I think what differentiates M.M. is the comfort factor of that. Our customers are not willing to let that go. And I think we've always prided ourselves on comfort. And even though it may be a wool trouser, like the elastic waistband can still—like that, that I think that would have been unthinkable, I think from a product development perspective, even seven, eight years ago to put an elastic waistband in a wool pant. But those are the kinds of things that are important to us because we want to really deliver on her feeling relaxed and at ease, even in these settings where tensions can run high.

Tom:

And if you feel comfortable, you often feel more confident and better prepared to face the day and the challenges that come with it. I want to talk a little bit about your relationship with your customers and a little more depth because you've done some fascinating things there. But one more baseline question in regards to presence on online versus presence in-store. You mentioned eight stores, maybe your outlook in regards to where that may lead in the next, say three or five year time period and your presence online and how much of your customer base to serve either channel.

Sarah:

Yeah, we, even though we do have eight stores, online is by far the biggest part of our business. And I will say, I think transparently, we've seen much stronger growth in our retail stores than we have online. I think online, especially post-2022, up until then, I think there was still a lot of kind of COVID, even post-COVID, online shopping craze. And I think since then, it's just become increasingly harder to get her attention. She's being bombarded with ads on Meta, Instagram, every way she looks, there's a new brand that's trying to win attention and her dollars. And I think that's where we found retail, brick-and-mortar, and in particular, I would say in-person events actually, to be a real growth lever for us. I love having customers in our store. We throw frequent events. Sometimes they're hosted by us, sometimes by other companies that are looking to partner with us, other brands. And I think when I think about the next few years, I'm more bullish on physical retail than I am online.

Tom:

And we often say that the only channel that matters is the consumer channel. And generally speaking to be successful in retail, you have to be able to deliver in both. Although you may emphasize one channel versus the other. You mentioned something about in-store events and I was just reading about what you've done in that regard. I just find it fascinating the way you've interacted with your customers at different points on their career journey as well. And including what's happening in the D.C. job market right now. And so if we're just talking a little bit about that, because I think that is just such a great example of building a deep relationship with your customers that goes beyond just delivering a product.

Sarah:

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Washington D.C. has been a really interesting market for us. It's our second biggest market and has been for quite some time. And that makes sense. A lot of professionals, women who work in government. And when the DOGE cuts started happening at the beginning of this year, like we really immediately saw an impact in our store sales. I want to say both stores were down maybe 25% to the prior year and customers were coming in and saying, I might get let go and I'm not sure I can make that big a purchase today. Or we’ve actually had customers return things after the fact saying, unfortunately I have been let go and so I have to return this. And it was like a moment of really, how do we meet her where she is and historically, we've always offered these headshot events. That's a really popular event that we offer with our customers where we welcome her into the store. We have a professional photographer. She gets her headshot taken for LinkedIn, etc. And so we said, why don't we continue to extend that theme and say, why can't we do a resume workshop? Why can't we do networking events? And not so that—not going to make the purchase then and there, but she will land on her feet. She will get another job. And when she does, hopefully she'll think of us again.

So it's been a really, I think, wonderful way for us to show our customers like we're here for you, even if you're not making that purchase. I really quite mean it sincerely when we say we're in it for the long haul with our customers. One of the proudest facts that I can share about our business is that we have a very wide age distribution. We've got pretty equal age distribution between ages 25 and 55. It's not like we acquire a young customer and then she graduates from us by the time she's 30 or we have just mature customers who can only afford us later on in her career. We really do span different demographics. And I think just keeping in mind that this is a long-term relationship, I think has really guided us in a lot of these moments.

Tom:

I think it's brilliant. You go back to your mission and the world is a better place when women succeed. And yes, you're doing that through the selling of apparel, but you're also doing it through this. It's totally aligned with your mission and ultimately, I assume it'll lead to a much more loyal customer over time. And I know that there's examples where things like that have in your past and we'll talk about that in a few moments as well.

Another thing I found fascinating was the bento box offering. And most people think of bento box, they're going to think of Japanese cuisine. Talk about it in the context of your business and how that again is building a relationship with your customer that's very tailored to that.

Sarah:

Thank you for noticing that. The bento, just to explain to your audience, is a service that we have for our customers where she fills out a survey, brief questions, she answers questions about like her preferences and how she would describe her style. And then based on that, she can text with her stylist and our stylists ultimately recommend her a selection of curated products that she really thinks would work well for her. And it's up to her to decide whether she wants to buy and which styles she wants to take. I think what I find, like e-commerce today is so archaic in many ways. I mean, the other day I was like trying to find copy paper and you search for copy paper and you're immediately served 50,000 options and you're supposed to somehow select the best one and it's completely overwhelming. And I think, I mean, I'm speaking for all working moms across the planet when I say like you feel so time-starved and the last thing you feel like you have time to do is like swore through 50,000 options. So the bento offering is really meant to be for those women who are too busy to shop. Let us narrow down the options for you. Let us really tailor our recommendations to meet your lifestyle and your needs. And you're only picking from the things that we actually really think will work for you. It's maybe—someday AI will nail it, but I think right now we use a mixture of AI and a real human stylist and really try to set our offering to meet her and meet the moment.

Tom:

Again, brilliant. You mentioned the challenges with e-commerce maybe being a little overwhelming. And I recall listening to you talk in another podcast where you mentioned early in your journey about the importance of trunk shows. And then that led you to realize the intersection between what you learned there and the importance of the store. Explain what a trunk show is and how that relates to the importance of the store.

Sarah:

Sure. I think it originally comes from like these fashion brands or mom-and-pop shops would like literally show up with a trunk of their products and they would, whether it's a hotel suite or someone's apartment and just lay their offering and then people would buy. And that's actually how the business started. We, I didn't have enough money to launch an e-commerce site. This was like back in 2012, 2013. It was like Shopify. It was very nascent days. So I had enough money to make samples and we hosted these trunk shows in hotel suites. We would bring our samples, invite people, and they would place orders. And based on that, we would make to order because we were deathly afraid of inventory. And we started that way. And I think it was just always an indicator for me that our product was good. Like sometimes I find e-commerce has so many barriers and challenges, but I think a true test for me about whether a product can be successful or not is can you actually sell it in person. Is the product good enough? So I think even after most of our business moved online, we really always continue with trunk shows. I also think it's like a really, it's a good way for us to meet customers, to introduce ourselves in person for her to touch and feel the product. Our products aren't cheap. I wouldn't say they're all—they're not luxury prices. We're often charging $300, even $400 for a dress. It's not like a purchase you make super casually. And so for her to be able to just like touch and feel the quality of the fabric and see the sewing and really understand why this dress costs $300 is like really important to us. And I just also love that connection with the customer. Like I speak with many customers and we know each other on a more personal level. We pride ourselves on being a customer-centric brand. You can't really be that without knowing and seeing your customers face-to-face.

Tom:

That face-to-face interaction in some respects, to your point around seeing and touching the dress is the way to validate the quality of the product before you sell it online. Also talk a little bit about the product itself. Is it manufactured in New York?

Sarah:

Yes, initially when we started and our quantities were smaller, we made it in the Garment Fistrict and then we had to graduate. So now we make all over the world. We make in China, Vietnam, Turkey, Portugal, Peru, Japan, Philippines actually, newly added to the production matrix. Yeah, the tariffs have definitely been interesting times.

Tom:

I was going to ask you. The tariffs have been a big part of the decision-making process, yeah?

Sarah:

So painful, I can't even underscore it. When the news came out about a new 100% tariff on China, I was like on my kitchen floor, my husband was like, are you okay? I just don't know if I can do this again.

Tom:

I can imagine the volatility in making decisions there. I'm just struck by, you didn't come from an apparel or design background, Harvard, Bain, investment banking. You had that classic career path to a certain type of success. What prompted you all of a sudden to say, no, I'm going to do this when you didn't come from a design background?

Sarah:

Totally. Yes, Tom, yes, was naively, blindly on this path and I think I would not have gone into fashion had I not found myself deeply unhappy. I thought for the longest time I wanted to be in international development. My father was a diplomat for the State Department for almost 40 years and most of my family on my mom's side worked in government and I just thought like that's where my career would go.

Tom:

Your grandfather was the Prime Minister of Japan.

Sarah:

Yes, he was and definitely had a huge impact on me and how I saw my career going. So I think when I ultimately decided the nonprofit sector was like not a good fit for me, I find the mission so noble and it's a very, it's just like really meaningful work, but I think didn't fit my personality, I guess is probably the easiest way to put it. And so I ended up saying, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to swing to the other side and join this private equity firm.

It was really hard culturally. I think I was one of two women out of 140 investment professionals. And I knew immediately that it was culturally like not the right place for me. So I almost ran out of there. I was there less than four months. And, you know, I think I was at, I was 27 at the time and I felt like I had a job hopped. Tom, I know you were at Deloitte for 30 years. And I, that point had kind of three different things on my resume and I was only 27. And so I had this like kind of grave fear in my heart that I had ruined my resume and that no one was ever going to hire me again. And so in my head I was like, okay, I have to do, I'm going to have to like start my own thing. That's how I'm going to have to make money. And not for that, like I would have never started M.M.LaFleur. And I had always had this idea that professional clothing for women could be so much better. But I just thought I would do it. I don't know, as like a retirement project or something. I never thought it could be like a career. And had I not been in this like such a state of, now with some hindsight, I'm 41 now, so I can say, gosh, I probably would have found another job. I probably would have been fine. But I felt like I was in total despair. And had I not been in that place, I probably would not have started.

Tom:

Yeah, sometimes out of the lowest points and out of disruption come the greatest opportunities. It's very inspirational. And it really is the mindset of an entrepreneur. You had it in you, you just needed something to spark it. What's astonishing to me is that the industry that you picked is a really tough industry. It's a really tough industry just to go into when you don't have that background.

Sarah:

Yes, Tom, first of all, I thank you for saying that. And I just want to make one quick comment on that. I think people, when they think entrepreneur, they think like Mark Zuckerberg, or you have to be like sitting in someone's garage, like working on the next greatest thing and just like throwing yourself 100% into this one dream. And I just think that's 1% of entrepreneurs. And that's not how I would never describe myself as that kind of entrepreneur. I feel like I fell into it, but I felt very passionately about this particular problem. And I wasn't working in a garage. I was tutoring from 4 to 7PM to make ends meet while trying to start this on the side and very much like balancing two things at once. And I think people often think, okay, you're not a real entrepreneur unless you move to San Francisco. You're in Silicon Valley and you're living in a frat house with 20 other people. But I just, I think small businesses can be born out of so many situations and can turn into big businesses in really unexpected ways. So I just wanted to share that perspective. And yeah, I would say like fashion is an incredibly challenging industry. And I jokingly say, if you love anything else, go do something else. It's very complicated because it has so many different parts to it. It's a very long chain from fabric to production to sales and marketing to inventory planning to customer service and experience and retail.

And I think of it as the ultimate team sport. You have to be incredibly low ego. There is no kind of single leader, if you will, in the chain. Everyone has to be in like complete synchronized cooperation. And I think there's something like so challenging and also so meaningful about that. If you like teamwork, fashion is a really fun place to be.

Tom:

You met this opportunity to this really intersection of your business talent and your interest in business, but you also have a mission associated with this that is meaningful. And I think also probably scratches that itch a little bit too, to making an impact on the world beyond just making money. So you mentioned your father was a diplomat. So you probably traveled or moved around a little bit. Do you think that experience has helped you as an entrepreneur? Because I would assume moving from Paris to Tokyo to all the different places that you moved throughout your youth had its own challenges and maybe that instills some confidence in regards to just ability to adapt to new and different things?

Sarah:

Yes, I think that's right. I think out of all the things that I identify most with being what they call a military brat or a foreign service brat or just, I am very comfortable in settings that are foreign to me, no pun intended. And I think I have strong opinions, loosely held. I'm a flexible thinker. We have to be because there's so many constraints you're always working with, but I don't ever get too fixed on one idea. I think that has probably served me well in this context.

Tom:

You're probably, just by virtue of moving to different countries, you're exposed to different cultures and you have to learn how to adapt. And it forces you to check your own assumptions about how you think things are supposed to be.

Okay. So you founded M.M.LaFleur floor 2013. You had some years where you were growing the business. What was the first time you said really have something here that's going to, that I think I can build a sustainable business?

Sarah:

I wish there was some defining moment. And I promise I'm not just saying this, I still feel like I'm waiting for that moment, even though I think if we were just looking at the numbers, probably people would say, haven't you had that moment? But I think it's always been challenging. Like I've never had a moment where I get to pick up my head and be like, wow, we've made it. And that's a lesson for me right there is you're never gonna quite feel like you've made it. It's always a work in progress. I do think I've had moments that I've gotten to celebrate with my team whether it's the opening of a store or like hitting a particular like financial milestone. But I really don't think of like a moment of, wow, we really made it. I will say having pulled through COVID for me was like, it felt like a real achievement to share some numbers, like our revenue declined by 60% from 2019 to 2020. And we were really hard hit and had to go through three rounds of layoffs, closed all of our stores.

Tom:

You had 11 stores at that point, right?

Sarah:

And we were in the business of serving women who went into the office and then they couldn't go to the office for almost two years. We should have gone under.

Tom:

How did you navigate that?

We did a lot of things. Like I remember we had a product, there's a fabric that we have, call it origami tech. Origami because you can fold and throw it into your suitcase and the tech element comes from, okay, you pull it out on the other end and it's virtually wrinkle free. You can hang it overnight and then go the next day. And so it was like magical fabric and we just released a suiting group, I think September of 2019, done really well for us. And of course COVID hit and who was going to buy origami tech, like travel trousers, I think is what we called them. And my gosh, I'm laughing because we literally released a catalog in April, 2020 that was, that hit everyone's door. We didn't have time to stop it. It was called Up, Up and Away and it was an entire travel feature. And anyway, we renamed those trousers “origami joggers.” And as soon as we did that, sales picked up 4X.

So it turns out a lot's in a name and that was like one of the many ideas. I mean, we had a hundred of those where we were just like fighting for every dollar. There wasn't one thing that we did that I think saved the business. It was like a thousand tiny things like that. And we were just trying to win every dollar, like forever grateful to our loyal customers who were saying, I don't have a need for this or I don't have anywhere to wear this, but I'm still going to buy it because I love it. So yeah, it was two years of a really difficult time.

Tom:

There has to be a certain sense of, on one hand, holy cow, what the heck happened. We have a lot of progress here. We opened up 11 stores, we're building a loyal following online, big customer base, and then the pandemic hits. But then there has to be a certain level of competence that comes from having navigated through it. And now you're here. And in some respects, at least as it relates to the store, not necessarily online, you had to almost start all over again.

Sarah:

Yes, that's right. Yeah, maybe the confidence is resilience, I think. I feel like we can make it through most things. You know, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger. And it's definitely the case here. We had another incident last year where our lender, our primary lender, went out of business kind of out of nowhere. That was like really scary. Actually, probably more than COVID, especially because it was like over a very short, acute period of time. I thought we were going to lose the business and we made it through. And I guess I continue to believe that where there is hope, there is a way. You just need to keep fighting for it. I think that's a lot of whether or not you can make it to the next day or not. And hopefully it's not just about survival, it's also about thriving on the other side. But I think, yes, overcoming those two moments specifically feels like an achievement for me.

Tom:

Well, I'm glad you brought up that moment. I read in one of the articles that when your bank was going under and you ultimately it was a group of your customers, wasn't it? That invested in the business. That speaks a lot about confidence in the company and you and the relationship you built.

Sarah:

Yeah, that was magical. It's just a group of our customers and a few other individuals came together really to save the business. And it was the first time we brought customers onto our cap table as investors, which felt very meaningful to me. And I think the silver lining through that experience was like, wow, we get to now say that we're not just like a woman-founded and -operated, but like now also like a woman-owned business. And we're still a small business in comparison to many apparel brands, but feel very proud of that fact.

Tom:

You've had an impact upon a number of people, your customers, they wouldn't invest their own resources into the business unless you've had an impact on them and they believed in what you're building. So I thought that was really interesting and wonderful when I read that because it made me think about what you were doing in the D.C. market and helping women that had lost their jobs or just any of the networking and job placement-type, job networking-type of things that you're dealing with that builds a level of intimacy as a trust. It's a relationship that goes beyond just, yeah, I really liked the product. Now you have them. It's almost like a family atmosphere to some extent.

Sarah:

Yeah, it's a very meaningful relationship that I get to have with our customers.

Tom:

One final thing as it relates to your customers that I want to talk to ask you—just a few things about retail in general. Your use of Substack, your newsletter, that had a positive impact upon the growth of the business too. And I was fascinated by that too. I was familiar with Substack, but not in the context of growing a retail brand. So talk about that.

Sarah:

I think we always thought content was a really key part of our brand. And actually we had a blog before we even had an e-commerce site. I grew up in Japan where a lot of the fashion magazines were much less about celebrity and much more about how professional women or working moms or stay-at-home moms dress for their lifestyle. I even, as like a young girl, I like those magazines to me were so aspirational. It wasn't like Vogue in America where it's like Kim Kardashian on the cover and maybe it's aspirational in one sense, but not at all relatable. Whereas like these Japanese magazines were really featuring women who felt like someone you could look up to and grow up to be one day. It was more relatable in that sense. And so I felt like that content really didn't exist, especially in 2013. This was prior to Instagram really taking off, there was not really a source of content for professional women. And I wonder if we could fill that void. We've had some amazing writers for, it's called The M Dash, but we've had—it’s a play on M.M.LaFleur and play on the, obviously the em dash in sentences. But we've had some incredible writers write for that publication. We won best digital publication. We beat out some big guys and won that award. And we migrated over to Substack, I want to say last year, because that's where we saw so many content creators and long-form content creators, I should say, going. I think we've never really been frankly like that strong on Instagram, but on the long form content, I feel like we've always known our place and that's, we've been cutting edge on that aspect.

Tom:

You might be meeting your customers where they're at too. Your customers are professional women. They might be more interested in that than other forms of social media. It does speak to the intersection with just digital channels, social media and retail. One thing I forgot to mention, I just want to talk about the name, M.M.LaFleur. The M.M. is your mother's nickname?

Sarah:

That's right. Yes. Thank you for knowing that. My mother's nickname is Memme and it means like eyes in Japanese. It's like a kid's way of saying eyes, “omeme.” Anyway, so I named it after her and I definitely also named it after my dad. My parents are huge inspiration in my life. They both worked so hard to have like very meaningful jobs, I would say. Well, also raising me and my sister and giving us like an amazing education and sacrificing really so much. But I think my parents always, like my mom always on Sunday night would be, I can't wait to go to work tomorrow. And I think it wasn't just because she was ready to send us off.

Tom:

Ready to get her house back—

Sarah:

Totally. I think she really showed me that should you be so lucky to have your work be your passion. Like in many ways there's no greater gift because that's, that's frankly what most of us spend our waking hours doing. So it's a tremendous gift if it's something you really love.

Tom:

Yeah. I'm sure they're quite proud of you and what you've accomplished. Let's talk about, in our final few minutes, technology. And if we're going to raise technology, we might as well raise AI because that's where it'll ultimately lead when you're about technology and the impact of technology over the course of the next five or so years. How do you see AI impacting, whether it's your business or just retail in general?

Sarah:

Generally, I think for humankind, concerned with so much of the kind of scary things that AI can do. But I think specifically, if I just think about the hardest parts of fashion, which is inventory management, planning and projecting, and there's like tremendous progress and accuracy maybe that has not been really possible just with humans that is possible because of AI. I think that gets me excited. The truth is we still do so much of our work in Excel. And I think that's actually true at much, much bigger brands too. Like most planners are still working in Excel and can AI really play a much bigger part in that? Like I have a friend who has a fashion business, men's fashion business, and he said that he takes the selling data and then AI makes a cut ticket based on the selling data. And so you're able to skip two steps in between to get to that place. And so I think that's the kind of technology that gets me really excited.

I'm less about, I think, how do we use that to interface with our customers? Because I think at the very end of the day, like we see ourselves as a very human-centric brand and our customers are usually coming to us like when they have these life changes, whether it's like they just had a baby and they're going back to work or they had it, they got laid off and they're interviewing or now they're going to start a new job. And I think that human aspect is so important to us. But I think if stylists can use it on the back end to say, okay, based on these things, like we think we can recommend to the customer these products and she's most likely to convert on those and therefore the stylist actually really gets to focus on the human interaction, then I think that's a really good use of AI. So yeah, we're very active in trying to just like, we're experimenting all the time and incorporating it. And so I think in the world of fashion, it could be used for a lot of good.

Tom:

Two final questions, just one, a kind of forward-thinking question, look out, you can pick your timeframe, five, 10 years, just any major changes in the world of retail in general, and then any certain aspirations or things that you'd like to accomplish with M.M.LaFleur in that same kind of timeframe.

Sarah:

Yeah, mean, my great prediction for the next 10 years is that I think social media is going to be less relevant and maybe in fact, like to the point of irrelevancy. And it is truly our main advertising channel right now. And so I think I'm always wondering what that's going to be replaced by. I think we just spent some time talking about AI, but I know a lot of customers are now like instead of Googling, they'll go to ChatGPT and say, if I'm trying to create a capsule wardrobe for myself, then where should I go? ChatGPT is making those recommendations. So I think that kind of advertising landscape is going to shift again completely, the way it's shifted completely within the past 10 years. So that's something I'm really closely keeping an eye on.

And I will say, think the macro, I do worry about the macro and trade impact on fashion because the truth is fashion is a very global industry. And I think it's going to be near impossible to turn the clock back on that. China is a really essential part of the fashion landscape and I can't really, the price of my latte has doubled in the past three years. Like the price of clothing is really, for the most part, remain pretty steady since the 1990s. Like we have gotten so used to the quality clothing for cheap. So if we're not willing to pay more money for it, then we have to be open to buying from around the world. And so I think maybe that's just something that we really, we really need to keep in mind every time we think about wanting to bring things back to America.

Tom:

Final question for you. Any words of wisdom for folks that are either operating as an entrepreneur today or really thinking about taking that plunge?

Sarah:

I will share my favorite quote, is, you must do the thing you think you cannot do. And it is an Eleanor Roosevelt quote, but I think so much of entrepreneurship is about like pushing down that fear and channeling courage. And so it's scary. Starting a new thing is scary. Change is scary. Running a business can often feel scary. And so I think if you think you can't do it, go and do it. And you probably can do it.

Tom:

I love that quote. You must do the things you think you can't do. There's a quote that's similar to that. It's never too late to be who you were meant to be.

Sarah:

I love that.

Tom:

Yeah. So it's a similar kind of thing just to seize the moment. Sarah, thank you so much for spending the time with me today. I can talk to you for hours.

Sarah:

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. This was both intellectual and I would say deeply spiritual. So I appreciate it so much.

Tom:

Thank you, Sarah. Talk soon.

Please follow and rate this podcast five stars on Apple and Spotify and share it with others that might find it interesting. Thanks for listening.